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In the movie Cool Hand Luke, the prison boss has a famous line: “What we got here is failure to communicate.” Paul Newman, in the title role, was the one not capable of comprehending and it earned him a long stay in the box, a harsh form of solitary confinement used to punish disobedient prisoners. Many visitors to the gay gogo Bars of Bangkok fall victim to miscommunication too. And their reward is often just as onerous, though it usually results in a lack of pleasure rather than the delivery of pain and humiliation. Even if that is what you are into.
Cool Hand Luke’s problem was his failure to understand the rules and workings of the Florida prison farm’s system. In his case it was more of a disregard for that culture than not knowing. In the case of gogo bar patrons it’s often more a case of not understanding the cultural workings of Thailand. Their inability to speak Thai coupled with bar boys’ limited knowledge of English exacerbates the problem. And it’s often times not words, but actions that lead to the miscommunication. Regardless, the customer ends up walking away with a foul taste in his mouth, unhappy with his not so happy ending. If he fails to learn from his mistakes, he soon becomes one of the masses who swears all bar boys are scammers interested in nothing more than lifting as much money off of customers as possible for doing as little as necessary.
The vocal majority of customers tend to fall in one of two camps, a black and white world where bar boys are either downtrodden angels in need of saving by the Big Bawana, or devilish scammers who treat customers like walking ATMs. Neither is a true picture. Most patrons of gay gogo bars in Thailand realize that like with any group of people there are good folk and there are bad folk. The truth is that the majority of Thai guys working in gay gogo bars will provide good service for a reasonable tip. The devil, however, is in the details.
On one year-end trip to the Big Mango I stopped into Dick’s Cafe on Soi Twilight for dinner. The restaurant was packed and I stood at the bar waiting for the next available table to open. Another customer’s arrival coincided with a table becoming available and a waiter, not realizing I’d been waiting, started showing the new guy to his seat. The host who’d been watching for a table for me rushed over and got in his face. Rather than get into an argument, I suggested to the other customer we share the table. We did, and he was an affable guy with whom I got along great.
David was an Aussie, a not-out gay man on his third night in Bangkok. We shared tales about bars and guys we’d offed and decided to hit the bars together after dinner. Not too old, not too bad looking, David had a ready smile for everyone and made for a great running partner. We shared a taste in men and joked about which of us called dibbs on the few muscle guys on the soi. Tawan is the bar for muscle aficionados, and it wasn’t belong before we headed down Suriwong to Bangkok’s muscle paradise. On the way, David told me that he’d been to Tawan the night before, had offed a guy, and had not been happy with the bar boy’s behavior.
“He had an incredible body!” David told me. “But pushy. Non-stop. It was all about money.”
I sympathized with him. Guys at Tawan tend to get top dollar. They are a slightly different breed than guys working the other bars and are used to getting lots of baht for little to no work on their part. “He didn’t want to do anything?” I asked, knowing that is the usual complaint about Tawan boys.
“No, no,” he replied. “He was willing enough, gave me a great massage, and told me in the bar he wouldn’t bottom. But he wanted me to take him to Australia with me! He even showed me his passport.”
Hitting up a new customer for a trip to Oz was a bit brazen even for a guy from Tawan. I could understand how the boy’s aggressiveness would be off-putting, even if he did perform as promised. I figured David had run across one of those bar boys who tries to cash in big time off any customer who offs him. David finished his tale just about the time we arrived at the bar. We’d barely sat down at our table before Nut, a bar boy with whom I had a history spotted me and came running over. I’d been offing Nut for years, had been his very first customer, and usually hooked up with him on every trip. Often for nothing more than a lunch or dinner. We’d become friends over the years and saw each other more often on a noncommercial basis than a business one.
Nut was all smiles, gave me a big hug, and then turned to David and greeted him by name before having to take his place on stage. When he left, David leaned over and whispered, “That’s the guy!”
Huh. I know Nut. He’s a sweetheart. And not in the least bit aggressive. I mulled David’s story over, comparing it to what I knew of Nut and quickly figured out where the problem laid. Nut had managed to get a passport earlier in the year and was quite proud of it. I’d already seen it three times. He kept it wrapped up in a cloth, obvious a valuable treasure. Showing it to David wasn’t about pushing for a trip, it was Nut sharing his good fortune, proud of owning a passport. I have no doubt in doing so, he’d said something to the effect of, “I go wit you.” But that would have been nothing more than his pride at being able to travel. Knowing Nut, more likely it was a joke.
I explained my take on what had happened to David. He wasn’t any more enthralled with Nut after I told him what his true intentions had probably been. David offed some other guy, I offed Nut, and we went our separate ways. I considered talking to Nut about David’s reading of him, thinking maybe it’d be a good thing for him to know. But then decided that it had just been Nut being his usual enthusiastic self, something I’d never want to see diminished. Nut, however, was curious about my relationship with David and asked if we were friends. When I explained we’d just met, he nodded, grimaced, and declared, “He not good customer.”
Nut was no more pleased with David than David had been with him. The problem had been partially that neither spoke the other’s language well. And they had miss-read the other’s motives. David, who was not addicted to being a butterfly, missed out on a pleasurable few days with a cute, and hot, companion. Nut missed out on the profits of a multiple-night off. All due to a failure to communicate.
“I do everyting,” is undoubtedly one of the most frequently misunderstood bar boy statements. Customers who assume that means the boy will in fact do everything the customer desires, once back in their hotel room discovers that is not the case. And then bitch to others that the boy lied. I’ve no doubt that some boys know how customers will read that claim and use it purposely to ensure they get the off. At the same time I also know that most guys working the bars learn their English from bar mates and that phrase just translates different in Thai and English. I also know that when a customer asks such an open ended question of a Thai, it’s probably his reticence over asking about specifics at work and the resulting miscommunication is his own fault.
Most muscled or masculine bar boys consider themselves ‘men,’ meaning they do not bottom. As a customer, you are supposed to know this. Thinking that bar boy may bottom is almost an insult. If you asked him, in plain English, if he does, in most cases he’ll almost say no. The more experienced will give you a definitive ‘no’, but Thais don’t like to say no. Its part of their culture to not disappoint. He may instead say something about pain, or size, or give a quick shake of his head as he addressees some other subject. Many times you’ll get the infamous, “I do everyting.”
When that happens, the customer hears, “Yes.” Because that’s what they want to hear. But the answer really is more of a “I do everything you should expect a man to do.” Which does not included bottoming.
Thai are big on not saying things directly. Their culture is built around avoiding confrontation. Thai societal rules ensure that everyone knows how they are expected to act. So there’s no need to spell it out. That’s where the ‘up to you’ comes from in asking how much a boy expects to be tipped. Sure, part of it is his hopes you’ll be more than generous. But ‘up to you’ means you know what the normal tip is and are expected to do you part. And yes, it is up to you so if you want to short-tip a guy you off you can. But as soon as he gets back to the bar he’s gonna tell all of his bar mates how cheap you are and the next time you walk into that bar, if not the entire soi, you’ll find none of the guys wants to be offed by you.
Some time ago I read a customer’s post on one of the gay Thailand message boards about the dud he’d offed from Tawan. He wasn’t as vicious about the experience as some who recount their tales are, but went into detail about all of the things the guy had done that pissed him off. Three quarters of the way through reading his post I started laughing. I knew exactly who he was writing about because the boy’s errors were quite familiar to me. And yup, it was Nut once again.
The customer had spent some time in the bar with Nut, chatting, drinking, and enjoying the show. He’d intended on offing Nut, but had not said so directly. Nut called one of his barmates over and introduced him, then started singing the guy’s praises, telling the customer how good of an off the other boy was. The customer was pissed, thinking Nut was hitting him up to off both of them. That was not the case. Since the customer did not tell Nut he wanted to off him, Nut called his bar mate over, hoping the customer would off him. Not both of them. He thought he’d struck out and was trying to find a boy acceptable to the customer.
The customer then told Nut he wanted to off him. And was pissed that Nut immediately went and got dressed, and then told the customer he would wait for him outside. The customer was unhappy because he felt Nut was pushing him, he wanted to watch the show, not immediately head back to his hotel for a night of pleasure. Again, it was a misreading of the situation.
When you agree to off a guy, he often asks if he should go change. Experience has taught the boys that once a customer decides to off them, the customer is ready to get back to his hotel and start enjoying himself. “I go change?” is really more of a “Are you ready to leave now?” Which makes sense. If you are planning on spending another hour at the bar, why would you want your boy to go put his clothes on? Who in the world would prefer a dressed guy sitting next to him over one wearing a skimpy pair of underwear?
Nut is one of those guys who actually knows how to give a massage. Before he bulked up, he used to walk on my back. I love the additional muscles he has put on over the years, both for their look and because being a muscle stud has always been his deepest desire. But I miss the days of having him walk all over me. It was not unusual for Nut to go across the street and pick up a bottle of oil in preparation for giving a massage when he was offed. When he did, he’d suggest I wait at the bar, giving me a few more minutes to drool over the guys there which was a hell of a lot more enjoyable than watching Nut buy a bottle of oil from Family Mart. That’s what he’d done with this customer too. But the customer read it as a, “Hurry up, let’s go, I’ll wait for you outside.”
So the customer was unhappy, did not have a happy ending with his happy ending, and made sure to post his displeasure so everyone would know how rotten the boys at Tawan are. Though it was a failure to communicate, I have to wonder why the guy went through with the transaction if he was so unhappy even before leaving the bar. Would it not have been better to not agree to the off, or if having already done so slip Nut 500 baht and say you changed your mind? There are guys at Tawan, as well as in the other bars, who will push for the big bucks, who will rush you along, and who will try and get as much money out of you as they can. They are easy to spot. They are the ones who push for an off and quote a figure for their time up front. If you decide to off them, then who is at fault when your night doesn’t go the way you want?
Failing to communicate in the gay gogo bar world in Bangkok is easy to do thanks to both the language barrier and differences in culture. We travel to their country, have a smattering of Thai at best, expect them to know our language, and then assume the little they do know means they are well qualified to speak and understand English. Few of us take the time to learn about their culture or how their society operates, assuming instead it is the same as back home. The bar boys know little about how our minds work either and assume we think like Thais do. It’s no wonder miscommunication occurs as frequently as it does.
Fortunately, avoiding being the victim of miscommunication is easy too. Be up front about what you want. Be specific, don’t rely on euphemisms or slang the boy may not understand. Realize that as a customer you have obligations, too. And take responsibility for your own orgasm. The guy you off is probably straight and only knows what a gay guy likes or wants through the experiences he’s had with other customers. Which may have nothing to do with what curls your toes.
Most bar boys want to please you if for no better reason that doing so may result in multiple offs and even more money in their pocket. But your cultural norms are as unfathomable to them as theirs are to you. They are not mind-readers. And farangs’ minds are truly strange things. If you’ve done your best and things still don’t go your way, before you blame the boy, consider that neither of you may have been at fault. The problem may just be due to a failure to communicate.
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Glenn said:
those are some amazing pictures with this post. I especially like the guy with the scarf and the one with the multiple necklaces who looks made up or airbrushed.
Bangkokbois said:
Thanks Glenn. Necklace guy is hot, I agree. I was thinking maybe even body make-up though?
Mitch S. said:
Good article as always!
How do you translate “not sure… maybe” from a Thai guy into English? At face value it’s noncommittal, but perhaps it’s a Thai attempt at not saying “no” directly.
Bangkokbois said:
Oy Mitch! That is definitely, clearly, without any question a NO!
lol
One of my favorite ‘no’ answers is: yes, can not.
Mitch S. said:
Sorry, I was too subtle with my humor. Should have included a winking smile… 😉
Bangkokbois said:
My bad Mitch, but yeah, emoticons are an integral part of the English language these days.
🙂
No foul though, the Thai non-definitive definitive no was a good point to raise anyway.
Al said:
There is much sage advice here for first time visitors and they should pay particular attention to the boy’s psych.
I remember my first visit, around the time of Rama IV, I probably did everthing wrong. At least I’m sure I didn’t offend. I was very careful on that count.
Pretty sure I know Nut (well one of them anyway.) He will, like all the boys, play the cards he is dealt. Treat them well, with respect, not like a two bit whore and you will gain a friend regardless of your ability to throw money around.
Golden rule in Thailand…User Pays. Even if it’s only a drink.
Bangkokbois said:
“He will, like all the boys, play the cards he is dealt. Treat them well, with respect, not like a two bit whore and you will gain a friend regardless of your ability to throw money around.
Golden rule in Thailand…User Pays. Even if it’s only a drink.”“
Nice Al. Perfectly stated and it took me 1,500+ words to attempt to say the same thing.
Rama IV, that was you????
Al said:
I don’t show my age you know….;0
bebot q gomez said:
exactly what keeps me from enjoying a night at Tawan…the communication problem and the dreadful music…i can hardly hear myself as much as anyone i could be talking to at the time…the thai’s inability to speak english has always been a setback…im not blaming them….its me probably who expects to be understood.
anyway, this blog surely helps me a lot in this respect….a query tho’: in my desire to off a guy i oftentimes get caught in a situation that i picked a guy and suddenly changed my mind in the middle of the “transaction” simply because someone more desirable comes up on stage…what to do? HELP!!!
best regards…!
Bangkokbois said:
Hey B, concentrate on the guys and the music will fade away. Smiling and sign language work well (it’s not like you are gonna be discussing world politics). And if you see a better prospect? Um, off them both?
🙂
Seriously, apologize profusely, tip big, and go grab the guy you really want. If you’ve already paid the off fee, you should let the captain know you are switching guys (and probably should tip him again too).
Al said:
The grass is always greener……….
Why stop at one? It can be fun watching them ‘ interact ‘
bkkguy said:
Marketing 101 – know your customer, know what he wants, know how to target a product to him and if the customer is not satisfied understand what you have done wrong and fix it
in 2012 any Tawan muscle hunk that still answers yes to “do you do everything” and expects every customer to understand that this means “I do everything a man would do so I do not bottom” has learnt a bit too much Marketing 101 Thai style – “This is Thailand, I am Thai, I don’t care about the rest of the world, I deserve whatever I can get, I don’t care if you never come back I have still made some money out of you!”
yes OK I understand caveat emptor and any first-time customer should be reading the forums and blogs and be a bit more culturally aware, and yes OK some of these guys are fresh of the bus from Isan, and yes we should be able to rise above such a meat market view of the transaction, but too many people seem too willing to cut the guys, the mamasans, the bar owners too much slack
how long has Nut or some of the others worked at Tawan? Are most of the target customers Thai (who understand the culture) or Asian or falung? How long have some of the other staff been there? How long has the current owner been running the business? 25 years? How much should the long term guys, the other staff and the management be trying to help the new guys to “communicate” better? How much responsibility should they be accepting not for this “failure to communicate” but for this basic marketing failure?
you say you don’t want to change Nat’s nature – but how many customers does he have to drive away from the bar before he too should learn some “cultural sensitivity” and respond more appropriately to his customers?
am I sounding like a “politically correct” jerk or are my rose coloured glasses just broken after living here and listening to all these justifications for too long!
bkkguy
Bangkokbois said:
God I hate intelligent arguments!
🙂
The points you raise are valid, bkkguy. Reading your comments, I was nodding my head in total agreement. Then realized you were speaking to the other side of the debate than I had in my post. So I read your comments again, keeping firmly in mind that you are a politically correct jerk with broken rose colored glasses. Bastard. I still found myself agreeing with you.
But.
I think you hit the problem squarely on the head with: “This is Thailand, I am Thai.” In the western business paradigm it is incumbent on the seller to provide for the buyer’s needs, to make allowances for the buyer in order to make the sale. Not so in Thailand. In Thailand you find a pair of shoes you like, ask for them in size 10 and the clerk, because size 10 is finit, brings you a size 8 and then looks amazed that you don’t want them.
And you are correct, Thais, generally, don’t understand the value of repeat business or what may be necessary to gain it. Any money today is valued higher than the potential for more money later. Many customers of the bars are repeat visitors. Shouldn’t the owners, mamasans, and boys ensure every customer walks away satisfied to encourage their return business then? Isn’t a large portion of their business built on profits off of repeat business?
You’d think so. But then this is Thailand. Instead, your satisfaction becomes your responsibility, not theirs. That’s wrong from the western paradigm. But works well in the Thai business world. Tawan has been around for close to 30 years, has not made a single attempt at conforming to western expectations, and continues to be a success. Granted, I think the bar could be even more successful if they made some effort towards customer satisfaction. But the money rolls in anyway.
Shouldn’t the boys realize by now that expecting farang to know ‘I do everyting’ doesn’t actually mean that is wrong? Yup. They should. But culturally, their reliance on the tried and true makes sense. To them. And you are in their country. So you are gonna play by their rules. When in Rome, do as the Romans do; when in Thailand, accept that you must deal with their culture and societal norms. Pop a few Xanax and it will be much easier.
I agree their lack of responding to the culture of visitors is a marketing failure. And in a perfect world, would agree that 90% of the failure to communicate is due to their negligence. But we have to deal with the hand they’ve dealt even when it seems they have a few aces tucked up their sleeves. So as much as I agree with you, I’ll still stand behind my advice that we need to be sensitive of their culture in dealing with Thais if we want to have a happy ending that truly is. We need to learn to speak their cultural language to avoid miscommunication, even though it should be their responsibility as the seller, not ours.
I love Thailand. But I could never live there. I’d go crazy and end up killing someone. Like the 7/11 clerk who refuses to grasp that I do not want a damn straw to drink my can of coke with. I empathize with you and admire your ability to retain some degree of sanity living there. It must be frustrating to run up against the Thai business paradigm daily. But for those who visit for a week or two at a time your best bet is to go with the flow, accept that to get anywhere it is you who has to make allowances for them. Because they are Thai, and your silly little needs are just never going to come into the picture.
Al said:
Damn, the comments are getting as long as the posts!!
Bangkokbois said:
Just be glad Jabba doesn’t weigh in and set everyone straight Al.
bebot q. gomez said:
hi! looking forward to my forthcoming 7-day holiday in the kingdom early next month. getting all excited about my vsits to tawan. i would appreciate it greatly if you could give me an update on the latest on tawan bar.
i am very much into muscular men and tawan is the only place that i know of…any other recommendations? thanks!
best regards…
Bangkokbois said:
Hey B, you must be counting down the days . . .
Sorry no recent updates for you, but then Tawan is always Tawan. I’m sure you’ll find someone there to your liking.
Hot Male, Dream Boys, and X-Size on Soi Twilight usually have a few muscular guys too, so for variety you might want to drop in, but for sheer quantity no one else comes close to Tawan.
Have a great trip!
Tommy Davis said:
Not getting my post wondering if something wrong
Bangkokbois said:
Sorry Tommy, that’s back of the house operations and beyond my pay grade.
First, check your email spam folder to make sure the notices are not being diverted (another reader discovered this was the problem a few weeks ago).
If that doesn’t do it, re-set your account by clicking on the Follow tab at the bottom of any page on my blog. And then don’t forget to follow through with the resulting email to you.
If neither of those works, let me know and I’ll turn it over to ES to solve.
Thanks!
Bangkokbois said:
Sorry Tommy but that’s back of the house operations and beyond my pay grade.
First, check to make sure your notifications are not being diverted to your email’s spam folder (this turned out to be the problem for another reader just a few weeks ago).
If that’s not it, re-sign up by clicking on the Follow tab at the bottom of any page on my blog. And then don’t forget to follow through with the responding email you’ll receive.
If you still have problems after that, let me know and I send it over to ES to solve.
Thanks!