Huh. I didn’t know Elmo was gay. Big Bird of course has always been suspect. And Bert and Ernie’s BFF and avowed bachelors act never fooled anyone. But my gaydar failed me completely on Elmo. Not that the acknowledgment by Sesame Street that the furry pink guy with a tickle fetish is in fact a gay man is earth shattering news. I mean it’s not like John Travolta finally stepped out of the closet (though I guess technically when that happens it will neither be earth shattering nor news). Still, it is good to know that the gang at Sesame Street who teach our country’s children their abc’s along with a heathy dose of the liberal agenda and an all-inclusive lifestyle practices what they preach and has kept a gay puppet gainfully employed for the past 20 years. It’s just a shame that with all the gay role models to choose from they went with basing Elmo on Jerry Sandusky.
Elmo recently took a leave of absence from Sesame Street after allegations that he had a relationship with an under-aged teen boy surfaced. The story that is only now coming to light – and I’d be remiss if I did not point out that this news was obviously held from circulation until after the presidential elections, which then begs the question of when did President Obama know about Elmo and why did he cover that knowledge up – stems from an accusation made last June by a 23-year-old man who claimed that he had “a relationship” with Elmo beginning when he was 16 years old. Previously, the little autobiographical info available on Elmo mentioned a failed marriage and a daughter, and only now that this scandal broke is Elmo’s gayness being revealed.
Elmo, who insists that the allegation of underage conduct is false and defamatory released a statement yesterday:
“I am a gay man. I have never been ashamed of this or tried to hide it, but felt it was a personal and private matter. I had a relationship with the accuser. It was between two consenting adults and I am deeply saddened that he is trying to characterize it as something other than what it was.”
Along with the allegations put forth by the young man, several emails sent by Elmo have been released in which he writes, “I’m sorry that I keep talking about sex with you, its driving me insane.” He adds, “I want you to know that I love you and I will never hurt you. I’m here to protect you and make sure your dreams come true.”
Elmo has acknowledged having a sexual relationship with the accuser but insists it only took place after the accuser was an adult. Up until then, when the young man was still a little boy, Elmo’s lust was just wishful thinking. Now that his preference for little boys has been brought to light, Elmo has come out of the closet as a gay man. And it’s a shame that Sesame Street, the Public Broadcast television show that helps our children learn to read and spell doesn’t realize that the word gay is not spelled pedophile.
There is a huge difference between being a gay man and being a pedophile. One is about love, the other, like rape, is about power and abuse. As being gay becomes more and more acceptable to society it is an easy mantle for the sickos who prey on children to slip on, a label that elicits understanding rather than the contempt they would receive for being known as what they are: a child molester. And it’s time the gay community quits allowing them to hide in the sheep’s clothing that disguises their true nature. Pedophiles are not gay men. They are predators. And those within the gay community who allow them free reign to prey on children through their permissive attitude are just as guilty for the damage they do.
Fans of Pattaya, the world’s playground for pedophiles, hate when others point out the city’s rep as a paradise for child molesters. They can not deny it, not when a month seldom passes that at least one more foreigner is arrested on charges related to under-age sex, and instead try to defend the town by saying how much better it is these days. That’s like being just a little bit pregnant. And it is that attitude that allows the problem to continue. They take exception with anyone who dares point a finger, but have little problem with supporting the establishments that offer under-age companions. They like to make grand pronouncement about how much they despise pedophiles, and then turn right around and make allowances for their friends and acquaintances who prey of children. “But he’s such a wonderful man,” they say, “other than that he likes his boys a bit on the young side.” That’s like saying Hitler should have been given a pass for exterminating 5 million Jews because he loved dogs.
Whenever another farang is arrested for diddling kids in Pattaya, the news is gleefully reported on the gay forums frequented by the Pattaya crowd. It’s how they keep up with their friends and neighbors. “How terrible!” the original poster writes. And then someone else will remind everyone that the pervert is not guilty until proven so, someone else chimes in saying he’s probably innocent and it’s only about the Boys in Brown trying to exhort bribes, and then some other outraged queen cries homophobia. These news stories do not elicit the outrage they should, instead they elicit sympathy for the poor man who some how ran afoul of the law. But I guess that shouldn’t come as a surprise. Not when a forum owner routinely advocates lowering the age of consent. Not when a thread on how to hide kiddie porn from customs when crossing the border is so popular it spreads over twelve pages of comments.
One poster who believes he is in line for sainthood and seldom passes up the opportunity to chastise the numerous people who fail to live up to his high standards went as far as to offer this sage advice on smuggling your private kiddie porn photos: “If you must save photos you don’t want customs to see, email them to yourself and don’t bring that chip back with you.”
That bit of advice worked well for 51-year-old Ian Potterton who was arrested last week on a series of under-age sex related charges while trying to board his flight back to Sydney. He’d emailed pictures of a 15 year-old-boy back to himself, being far too crafty than to actually carry the photographic evidence with him. Unfortunately for him, the authorities are just as internet savvy as pedophiles are these days.
Of course Potterton claims he is innocent and that the pictures of young naked boys were “non-sexual” in nature. Because normal men typically take photographs of nude children and then try to hide them from authorities using the internet. Several of those who posted comments to the thread about how to best hide your photographic treasures too claimed it wasn’t about kiddie porn but rather the idea that customs and immigration shouldn’t get to view their holiday photos. Right. Wink, wink.
Fussy old queens have no problem advocating boycotting bars that allow smoking on the premises. They often advise others to ‘vote with their feet’ and walk out of establishments that play music too loud. But the idea that the community should refuse to patronize those bars, or areas, known for offering under-age kids? Nope. In fact when yet another bar has been busted the only interest from punters is whether or not the place has reopened yet. Business as usual in Pattaya means a steady supply of boys who really are boys. And don’t think that is not exactly what the attraction is either.
Pattaya punters routinely bemoan that customs and immigration officials back home just don’t understand that Thai ‘boys’ often look five years younger, or more, than they really are. Those punters of course would never engage in sex with a minor, they always make sure to check ID cards so they know the boy is 18 and of legal age. Sorry, but Jimmy Carter got it right when he said he was guilty of adultery because he had lusted after women in his heart. It is the fact that so many of those just 18-year-olds look like little kids that attracts Pattaya fans. You may be carefully following the rule of law, but be honest about it: what gets you excited is the ability to have sex with a young man whose under-developed body makes him appear to be still a child. The law in Australia that says it is not the actual age but the perceived age of the boy involved that matters has got it right. Why do pedophiles get a pass by the gay community in Pattaya? Because a large portion of that community is lusting after little kids in their hearts.
If you Google ‘Sunee Plaza’ under images, of the twenty pictures that get returned 25% of them are about police raids that found under-age boys working in the bars, or about the latest pedophile to have been arrested during or after a holiday in Pattaya. But lets continue to pretend that is one of Pattaya’s ‘gay’ areas. Let’s protect the names and reputations of our fellow Pattaya fans and act like those who frequent Sunee are just gay men and not the sexual predators we all know them to be. And lets accuse anyone who says differently of being homophobic. Because without the scrim of homosexuality to diffuse the issue, Pattaya’s pedophiles wouldn’t have any place to openly play. And if you take away their ability to claim they are gay men instead of the child molesters they are, when you force them to take an honest look at the sickness that drives their lives, the flying farang numbers would soar. And wouldn’t that be a shame?
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tim said:
speechless !!!! every gay who ever visited pattaya is a peado !!
thats some statement to make.
great that its just a joke about the american guy tho.
so almost speechless.
Bangkokbois said:
I did not say every gay man who visits Pattaya is actually a pedo.
Some of them are just naive.
🙂
I think I was clear however about those who go there because the boys look like little boys, as well as those who think being attracted to children has something to do with being gay. And I’m sure many will try to defend those folk, whether they post a comment here or not. Interesting though that when you are in the right you never feel the need to defend your actions, huh?
tim said:
i would rather see them rot in hell before trying to defend them .. ive seen the rats of pattaya scurry about, and its quiet sickening .. so what should one do ? stop going there ?
but why stop going to a place you enjoy because of the actions of others .. isnt that giving in ?
ive seen sgt and people now mentioning the bib are more easy to see in sunee .. that gets a thumbs up from me .. i know you have a downer on pattaya and i can understand why some people hate it .. but you do tend to imply often that people who go there are somewhat twisted !!! i also enjoy bangkok as do many who go to pattaya … so you have to worry that the virus dont spread ..
the sickest thing about it all is the bib and people in high places are probably the worst offenders .. hence it will never be gotten rid off …. i dont go to the gogo bars much as seeing guys in their pants dont do it for me … i much prefer the beer bars .. but i do agree with you that after some of these raids people just want to know when the bars will reopen is wrong .. the bars should be shut end off .. and the owners jailed .. but its all about the dollar bill is it not ?
i guess you are just lucky that there are never any *boys* on the streets of bangkok .. cause then you would have to stop going there . huh ?
Bangkokbois said:
No Tim, despite my less than favorable impression of Pattaya I’m not saying you should not go there. Though I’ve yet to hear anyone come up with a valid reason why you should. 🙂
But if you go to a bar there and spot a boy on stage whose age seems questionable to you in the least, you should walk out. Yes, the local police and bar owners are equally to blame, but if customers refused to patronize those bars where that kind of thing goes on it would come to a screeching halt. Or at least be hidden away in the dark so that when the pedophiles prey on the kiddies, the BIB could more easily prey on them.
tim said:
my reason to visit pattaya is i can spend my days on the beach .. i live and work in london .. so im not a fan of big cities .. therefore 2 or 3 days of bangkok is enough for me otherwise its just like home ..
as for boys who look underage in bars or gogo’s etc … ive never left a bar yet where a boy has appeared to be underage .. reason being ?? ive never yet seen a boy who looks underage in a bar ive been in .. as i said earlier ive seen the rats in the sois .. but then ive see them in bangkok too ..
Trico said:
Wow that was quite a rant !! “Elmo” is accused of having sex with an underage (16) year old male who then recants and says he was an adult. You still continue with a 15 paragraph rant using the word “pedophile” instead of “pederast” I agree with you that an adult male shouldn’t be having sexual relations with a non adult male. having said that in many parts of the world including many US States 16 is the age of consent for both males and females. I get the impression that your rant is informed more by the terror going on in the land of smiles than poor “Elmo”.
Bangkokbois said:
Thanks for your comment Trico, and yup, Elmo now claiming to be a gay man thanks to facing allegations of child molestation was just a cheap excuse for a rant about pedophiles in paradise. But then who can resist the lure of talking about puppet sex?
My rant, however, was not just against pedophiles, I hope that by now like with rape there are no supporters left to argue with as though that is a legitimate issue. My problem is with those who willingly allow pedophiles to hitch their wagon to the gay community’s star as though the two have anything to do with each other. And yes, I used the word pedophile – along with child molester – not pederast. That ‘is it live or is it Memorex’ argument doesn’t fly with me. That is the pedophile’s argument that it’s all about man/boy love instead of the abuse that it is. That’s the ancient Greeks’ sexual idiosyncrasies being used as though that practice should still have relevance today. It is generally accepted that when you speak of pederasty the younger of the two involved is a boy between the ages of 12 and 17 – that’s pedophilia however you want to spell it.
The age of consent in the state of Arkansas is not a legitimate argument either. Federal law says it is unlawful for an American citizen travelling abroad to have paid sex with anyone under the age of 18. In Pattaya, that you are paying for it is never an argument. The problem with pulling out the age of consent argument is that is a legal line being drawn in the sand that shifts too frequently and fails to take into account the people involved. Is it right for an 18-year-old to be guilty of statutory rape because he had sex with a 16-year-old? No. The two are close in both age and level of maturity. If the locale’s age of consent is 16, is it right for a 60-year-old to have sex with that 16-year-old? No, it is not. It is morally wrong. It is not an equitable relationship. The older man uses his maturity, experience, finances and social standing as levers to get what he wants. That is abuse plain and simple. Those are the tools used by a predator, not by a gay man in love.
Glenn said:
The Elmo accuser recanted his story and now agrees that the sexual relationship didn’t occur until after he was of legal age.
And anyway, a 16 year old is hardly a child.
Bangkokbois said:
So I read today Glenn, though I’ve yet to see where the non-sexual relationship didn’t start when he was 16. So let’s give Elmo a pat on the back for keeping it in his pants for two years? Still sounds to me like someone lusting in their heart. As for 16 being ‘hardly’ a child, the math changes when you add a 45-year-old man into the equation.
Hendrikbkk said:
You give governments too much credits, especially the Australian one, the perceived age? So now some official can decide if a person can have sex, not regarding the real age?
As a liberal from Holland where the age of concent is 16 years, I think it is a creepy idea that burocats have so much power. Did you ever meet those burocats? It is coming knowledge that all over the world mostly narrow minded people work for government.
And please don’t quote that religious freak of a Jimmy Carter, isn’t he dead yet?
Bangkokbois said:
What? You’d rather I quote Donald Trump?
🙂
I’ve dealt with enough bureaucrats to not trust them. However in this case it seems to me to be the lesser of two evils. But then I’m more aligned on the moral than legal side of this issue.
As for the legal age of consent being 16, I’ve no problem with teens enjoying each other. I’ve no problem (probably) with a teen and someone in their twenties entering into a relationship. But a 60-year-old and a 16-year-old? Nope. There is no equality there. That’s an open door for abuse.
Logan said:
I think for the benefit of those who did not follow the Sesame Street story, you could have included the fact that the accuser of the Elmo puppeteer has completely recanted his allegations. A casual reader of this article would be left with the impression that the issue was still a live issue.
Also, I would point out that Sunee has several bars where there has been no suggestion of underage employees, such as , to take one example, Krazy Dragon.
That does not negate your main point though. There should be zero tolerance on the Thai gay message boards for suggestions of there being any excuses or going with an underage person.
Bangkokbois said:
Sorry Logan but I wrote this piece yesterday. I can predict presidential election outcomes, but I’m still working on calling the sex scandal stories.
🙂
xiandarkthorne said:
Oh dear…I go to Party-ya for the beach (I like swimming in the sea while oggling lots of eye candy on holidays), the sex because there are so many non-underage-looking boys around that fit both my tastes as well as my budget, and the food which is good and cheap (okay, so I prefer Thai street food evry time).
I DON’T go to Party-ya for shopping (more expensive than Bangkok), drinking (I’m allergic to alcohol) or dubious-looking young men (bleahhh…just not my type) because I’m looking for paid sex with men – NOT boys (even if everyone has an irritating habit of referring to them that way).
Oh dear…is everyone going to think that I go to Party-ya to indulge in worse sins now? Should I stop going to Party-ya?….NAAAAA…Not as long as I enjoy doing what I do with people who don’t look as if they’re young enough to be my own grandsons (although that’s getting harder every year as I get older myself).
I could never understand the need to have sex with people who are just past their legal age, anyway….or look as if they are below legal age but are actually over the line.
Bangkokbois said:
I don’t know if you are the best poster boy for Pattaya’s defense XD!
🙂
I know a lot of visitors like Pattaya, guys who are not the least bit attracted to kids. I guess because it’s cheap (or at least the bars are). You can get better accommodations for the price in Bangkok, better and just as cheap street food in Bangkok too, and transpo is a hell of a lot more convenient. Maybe having spent 95% of my life within driving or walking distance of a beautiful beach makes it difficult for me to buy into the Pattaya beach scene. So I still am stumped on what the place’s allure is.
xiandarkthorne said:
Ha ha Thank you but at 53 I hardly qualify as a boy. And I, too, live within 3 minutes of a beach. On top of that, I don’t drink alcohol (okay I fall off the wagon sometimes and then all hell breaks loose) so I still pay a marked up price for soft drinks at every bar. Bar prices have nothing to do with it.
I can’t speak for others but for me personally, here’s why I choose to holiday in Pattaya even though I can just cross the road to the beach every other day of my life –
1.Pattaya’s Dongtan gay beach is where I can oggle the candy and not have to worry that some religious nutcase isn’t going to jump on my back about it – on top of that, Dongtan is very laidback compared to he beach where I live. I haven’t been to other parts of Jomtien (I don’t need to watch str8 people having fun) and I’ve only walked Beach Road once during the day amd that was quite enough for me. It’s a bit too frenetic. So Dongtan is my venue of choice for bathing and basking.
2.I know there are bars in Bangkok where I can have a gentleman more youthful than I am sit next to me all evening (or as long as I keep buying him drinks, which to my mind is fair), but I’ve found that in Pattaya they are rather less pushy about the drinks or being offed. And at Sunee Plaza (my favourite place to put my arm around a gentleman’s shoulder and watcht the rest of the world promenading by, there is rather less glitz and go than any of the other venues in Pattaya or bangkok.
3.Where food is concerned, I normally eat from the street vendors and my favourites – grilled river catfish, fried silkworms, grasshoppers and teeny frogs – are just around the corner from my hotel. In Bangkok, the closest such vendor is at Patpong also around the corner BUT a much bigger and busier one. When I am not shocking the tourists by stuffing my mouth with any or all of the above, I can find a wider variety of street rice stalls just across the road and down the alley in Sunee. In Bangkok, there is only ONE such stall within the same distance.
4.My hotel room is much bigger and cheaper in Pattaya than in Bangkok. Admittedly, I don’t spend much time in my room (except for the obvious) and I’m perfectly happy as long as I have air-conditioning, a clean double bed, a comfortable armchair or two to sit on when I’m on my iphone, a small kettle for making coffee (the amount i drink constitutes self-abuse) and a little fridge for keeping my cold water. For what I pay in Pattaya, I get all of that – I’d have to pay at least 250 Baht more per night for the same in Bangkok, or at least that’s what I’ve found on the internet.
5.I’ve made friends with some of the local gay expat community in Pattaya in just 2 years of visiting. The hotel front desk staff where I’ve been staying in Bangkok every year since 1994 still fails to recognise me, and as for many of the expats I’ve seen in the Bangkok gay and gogo bars….oh dear, you can’t blame a frail little queen like me for being quite afraid of them!
Having said all that, I won’t bore anyone any more with further reasons why I prefer Pattaya for at least a week and then Bangkok for the last few days of my stay, except that Bangkok is where I go and watch big cock shows all evening (among other things) to tide me over until my next trip!
Bangkokbois said:
I guess this is your comment that ‘went up in smoke’ XD?
Thanks for attempting to explain Pattaya’s allure, for me there is still nothing there that would entice me for another visit, but then we have vastly different ideas of what constitutes a great holiday. It sounds like the place is more familiar to you (for lack of a better way of describing it) whereas the hustle and bustle of Bangkok is more familiar to me and where I come from. Maybe in the end that’s the big difference in how we percieve the two locales. Thanks for the input in any case.
xiandarkthorne said:
Yes, that was the one that disappeared for some reason. I wonder by what magic you recovered it. truth be told, I am truly familiar with neither Pattaya nor Bangkok. As I have said, it’s how much I can get for my Baht – how many butts for my Bahts, so to speak, which actually determines how long I spend in either place. had I the wherewithal and the time, I’d probably soend equal amounts of time, alternating between the two places every three days or so until I ran out of energy. Or spunk.
Bangkokbois said:
Um, I clicked on ‘Comments’.
🙂
xiandarkthorne said:
I just typed a very long reply to what you said and it all went up in smoke when I hit “POST COMMENT” so I’m not going to bother re-typing it all again. So what I’ll say is that for about 400 Baht less than what I pay in Bangkok every night, I get a big room the size of a 4-star hotel’s suite, a refrigerator, a kettle and a full suite of furniture (armchairs, sofas, etc.) including a separate dresser and mirror. The street food is closer to my hotel in Pattaya AND I don’t have to go searching for different vendors to get fried grasshoppers, frog, silkworms and waterbeetles. The grilled riverine catfish stall is right next to the bug man, too. I’m lazy.
But thanks for the compliment. At 53+ it’s been a long time since anyone thought there was anything even slightly boyish about me.
xiandarkthorne said:
Dang, I forgot to say why I do also love Bangkok but usually only for the last few days of my trip but I guess it won’t be too hard for anyone to understand why i do like the place if I just list the following –
big cock shows
big bookstores
bigger men with muscles
And since the sex is cheaper in Pattaya, I can get three turns at bat in one night for the same amount I would end up paying for 2 big cock shows and just one partner in the Big Mango. That’s why I usually leave Bangkok for the last few days, when I no longer feel like I need to hop on THAT particular merry-gay-round every night any more. It’s the difference between gobbling and savouring, I guess but then I never said I wasn’t cheap and greedy.
Alex said:
Personally, I don’t believe that those coming to Pattaya to have sex with young boys are a large group of people, let alone the majority of gay visitors going there. That said, even one is one too many and I hope all of them get caught.
I don’t think it makes sense to single out a place, what really needs to be singled out are the predators. Where were all the Concerned Citizens of the West when people like Sandusky, Savile and countless Catholic priests shamelessly abused children with impunity, over decades and right on their doorstep? Too busy with fuming over incidents in remote places, one could think!
But you’ve got a very valid point as far as the forums are concerned. In my naivety, I actually did once suggest – on one of the boards – simply boycotting a gay bar that had been closed for such activities and then re-opened, and some of the responses really made me wonder. Sure, you can make up excuses or sidetrack the discussion, but really, this should be a no-brainer.
Bangkokbois said:
Okay, so I’ll add any and all Catholic Churches to the pot.
🙂
Of course you’re right Alex, it does happen everywhere. But if you are talking a specific geographic area you have to admit Pattaya has more than its fair share. I do not think the majority of gay visitors to Pattaya are actually pedophiles (or pedo wannabes), though you have to question the motives of grown men who go there specifically for the large number of guys who though legal look as though they are still young boys.
Perhaps those on the forums just make it seem that way – someone just started a thread about Sunee on SGT using the phrase ‘more relaxed’ in his discussion of the bars where employment of under-aged boys is known. And that’s the attitude that is problematic. Whether that specific poster indulges or not, it’s a ‘we all know where to go and that is cool with us’ attitude as though providing for predators is an acceptable part of the gay community.
I missed your comment about boycotting that bar. Ballsy of you. Are you still allowed as a poster?
Alex said:
First of all, thanks for adding the Catholic Church to the pot! They’ve deserved it. 😛
Fair enough, Pattaya certainly sees more than its fair share of child molestation. I just wanted to call to mind that it’s a sad fact that the vast majority of children who suffer sexual exploitation do so at the hands of people very close to them (e.g. family members, priests, coaches and teachers).
Just like you, I find comments like, “They’re of legal age, but [thankfully] they look much younger”, very problematic, for the reasons you’ve outlined.
Also taking into account several other comments, the question is where to draw the line between criminal behavior (child abuse) and morally wrong or questionable behavior (older guys using their power and/or money to ensnare younger guys). Personally, I think that an age of consent of 16 years in regular cases and of 18 years when money or a position of power come into play are quite sensible as far as the criminal aspect is concerned.
With that in mind, I think that I have to tolerate older guys who want to have sex with 18 y.o. boys, although it’s neither my preference nor a pretty sight for me. My personal preference are guys who’re just a couple of years younger than me (ideally, a college boy body attached to a somewhat more mature brain, so likely candidates are typically 25-30 y.o.), therefor I often end up being the youngest foreigner in a group bringing along the oldest Thai companion. 😉
My boycott suggestion was neither deleted nor was it considered a punishable infraction, there was just more dissent than I had expected. I didn’t word it too harshly and I’m not known as someone who’s intentionally stirring up shit, so I guess banning me would have been over the top even by Thai Gay Forum Standards.
Bangkokbois said:
Anything for the Pope, Alex.
🙂
You’re probably being more reasonable than I am on this issue. Broad strokes are never a good way to go, and it does come down to individual cases. I don’t doubt that there are well-meaning adults who start up a relationship with a younger guy (meaning an 18-year-old) who are not taking advantage of the kid but providing him with the security and love he needs. I just don’t see that as the motivation in Sunee and even outside of that arena it would be the exception to the rule.
Thanks for your input.
Glenn said:
Not saying I necessarily disagree with you completely. But if you have a problem with a 16 year old and a 45 year old (or 60 year old), do you have no problem with that same 45 or 60 year old with an 18 year old? How about a 65 year old and a 25 year old? Or a 40 year old and a 20 year old? Or a 55 year old and 29 year old? Where do you get comfortable?
Bangkokbois said:
Um, what were the choices again?
🙂
Honestly, yes I still have a problem with a 60-year-old and an 18-year-old though I am willingly to admit that the 18-year-old may be mature enough to see to his own welfare; a 21-year-old I’d be much more comfortable with. The others, no problem. It is not the disparity in age but the level of maturity and the younger person’s ability to hold his own against the elder. To me it is the same issue as with sexual harassment in the workplace where a boss uses his authority to coerce an underling. That is the more important part of the issue, not getting hung up on trying to define the exact age where a young man no longer is suspectable to abuse.
Mitch S. said:
Always interesting to see what topics generate such strong opinions!
Thailand’s age of consent is 15, but the unfettered age of consent is 18. For Americans, the U.S. PROTECT Act of April 2003 defines a “commercial sex act as any sex act, on account of which anything of value is given to or received by a person under the age of 18.” http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1467.html
The message forum rants on desired punishment for pedophiles often make me chuckle. Let’s see, people can serve seven years for Murder 1, but these bombastic posters think molesters should be castrated, raped themselves and be put away for life without the possibility of parole. Cruel and unusual? Disproportionate punishment to even more serious crimes?
As for age differences in genuine gay relationships, I try to keep an open mind. I can handle seeing an “uncle” age difference, but the “grandpa” age difference can look ridiculous. I’m thinking right now of one elderly, public grabber I see sometimes at a few show bars.
I’m sure a 20+ year-old companion would be more dependable at wiping a geriatric’s chin & ass than someone in their late teens. Of course, it would be cheaper to just hire a real health care attendant in Thailand for that sort of attention than to support a money boy, his girlfriend, their children, parents, buffalo, etc.
Bangkokbois said:
Yeah it is Mitch, as is the adult tenor of those who join in on the conversation. I have to wonder if the forum owners/mods with their heavy hands are not their own worse problem.
If it is two adults involved, I don’t have a problem with a large age difference either. Fifty years may be pushing it, but that’s more about not having anything in common. But then we’re talking about a relationship as opposed to scoring booty.
BTW, thanks for posting that link. I’m sure it will be of use to some!
bkkguy said:
“If the locale’s age of consent is 16, is it right for a 60-year-old to have sex with that 16-year-old? No, it is not. It is morally wrong.”
who died and made you king?
many countries have set age of consent at 16, 15, even 12 and often without age of partner limitations and the local communites seem to agree that people of this age in this locale can make an informed decision about sex because there is no local community moves to change these laws – yet you seem to think you have the God given right to ignore the local community and declare this as morally wrong based on your own individual prejudices! Why should your personal views apply to every country and every community in the world?
many conservative religious right people in the US – based again on their own personal prejudices – claim that M2M sex is morally wrong and should be stopped in every country and every community in the world – how is your view any more supportable than theirs?
bkkguy
Bangkokbois said:
Well bkkguy, since no one has yet agreed to my title of Leader of the Universe, I guess that would mean I’m expressing my opinion and not making a royal decree.
Sorry, just because my personal opinions based on my moral compass differs from yours does not mean they are therefore based on prejudices. But good try.
But yes, if some locale has decided that a 12-year-old is capable of making an informed decision on all matters sexual and is then open game for the advances of a 60-year-old, I do have a right to say that is wrong. Or are you saying that in those countries where homosexuality is punishable by death we all have to agree and call that a just law because that locale has decided it is?
You usually do a much better job of making me challenge my assumptions, care to try again?
bkkguy said:
“Sorry, just because my personal opinions based on my moral compass differs from yours does not mean they are therefore based on prejudices.”
there are opinions, there are beliefs and there are prejudices:
Distinguishing Between Fact, Opinion, Belief, and Prejudice
http://writing.colostate.edu/guides/teaching/co300man/pop12d.cfm
we could perhaps have an interesting discussion about whether you are expressing your beliefs or your prejudices here but I think you are not expressing an opinion!
I am not from the USA but I am strongly in favour of free expression of opinions but I am sorry bit I still don’t see how your declarations about what is “morally wrong” are any more supportable than many other such declarations!
bkkguy
Bangkokbois said:
Much better bkkguy!
And I’d love to debate the opinion/prejudice/belief/fact question with you. As I freely express my opinion on this blog daily, as a topic that will make a great post. But framing that debate on this issue is a non-starter. You’ve asked me defend the position I took in this post by zeroing in on age of consent, a tricky issue that skirts legal, moral, and cultural beliefs. But this article was about the well-known and established frequency of pedophilia in Pattaya and the gay community’s permissiveness in allowing that type of behavior to continue (not to mention allowing it to be draped under the gay mantle).
I said earlier here that when you are in the moral right you know it because you do not feel the need to defend your position. And I don’t. But gladly will if, since you want to take the opposing view, you defend that first.
If there is nothing wrong with grown adults flying to Thailand to have sex with minors, then why do they go through that hassle and expense to do so? If that is okay, why then instead do they not just stay at home and have sex with the teenagers in their own community?
If there is nothing wrong with grown adult men having sex with minors and documenting their ‘fun’ on film, then why the need for a 12 page discussion on an internet forum about the best way to hide those photographs from the authorities?
You may want to label taking a moral stance against something that is inherently evil as a prejudice all you want, but it is incumbent upon all good men to stand against immoral acts and wrong. You do not need to defend your stance against female genital mutilation, regardless of its cultural, religious, or historical basis. You do not need to defend your stance against mass genocide, regardless of the political, religious, or historical reasons one group of people decides to kill off another. You have to defend your stance when you are in favor of those things, not when you are against them.
So enlighten me. Tell me about how good, right, and moral pedophilia is. And then I will pull out my prejudices and defend my beliefs.
bkkguy said:
“Tell me about how good, right, and moral pedophilia is. And then I will pull out my prejudices and defend my beliefs.”
perhaps we can start by agreeing on what pedophilia is – a typical definition I have seen describes it as “a psychosexual disorder in which the fantasy or actual act of engaging in sexual activity with prepubertal children is the preferred or exclusive means of achieving sexual excitement and gratification”
to refresh your memory, the statement I picked up on from your post was:
“If the locale’s age of consent is 16, is it right for a 60-year-old to have sex with that 16-year-old? No, it is not. It is morally wrong.”
perhaps then you can explain why I need to explain “how good, right, and moral pedophilia is” before you will justify your statement!
“You’ve asked me defend the position I took in this post by zeroing in on age of consent, a tricky issue that skirts legal, moral, and cultural beliefs. ”
you want to argue about pedophilia then lets argue about it – I might even agree with you – but you where the one proselytizing about what was morally right and wrong that had nothing to do with pedophilia!
but there is really no point in trying to have a rational discussion with someone who makes statements like
“when you are in the moral right you know it because you do not feel the need to defend your position”
and
“You may want to label taking a moral stance against something that is inherently evil as a prejudice all you want, but it is incumbent upon all good men to stand against immoral acts and wrong.”
bkkguy
Bangkokbois said:
Thanks for reiterating my point bkkguy, unless yours was ‘if it has hair it’s fair game’.
Part of the problem, as I pointed out in my post, is the gay community’s willingness to allow pedophiles to hide within the community, when in fact pedophilia has nothing to do with being gay. When the subject comes up, far too often – especially on the gay forums – the response is ‘oh, it’s just an allegation’ or some other bullshit to excuse the person who just got arrested for diddling a kid. Instead of addressing the subject, or god forbid condemning it, you get someone trying to argue that you first have to define the word pedophile.
It’s easy to pick out a sentence or a phrase and attempt to use that to argue a small point while completely ignoring the rest, or bothering to address the real problem. But that’s the smoke and mirrors approach that allows despicable men who prey on kids to continue without fear of becoming a pariah in the community.
Sometimes, despite how much you enjoy being a contrarian, you need to consider the issue you’re going to provide a counterpoint to before letting your fingers loose on the keyboard. My point in my last comment to you, which you decided to ignore, was that before you start in on semantics to confuse the issue – which by doing so helps supports the act – you need to at least take a pro or con stance. At least if you came out and said you are in favor of child molestation your subsequent comments would be honest.
Not surprisingly, the subject of the Australian who was just busted was recently brought up on two boards. The response has been a lot of the ‘only alleged’ type comments to how those nasty Thais scam poor unsuspecting gay men with under-aged kids, to something is suspicious because it was the Thai police not the Australians who arrested him, to one poster saying there was nothing wrong with his taking picture of naked 15 year-olds at a waterfall and he would surely be suing everyone involved soon. So I hate to tell you bkkguy, but rather than the lone voice taking the opposing view that you strive for, you are in this case just another adding his two cents worth in favor of clouding the issue so that those who prey on the young can feel free to do so in the future.
bkkguy said:
you run around shouting “pedophile pedophile” when you don’t even know what the word means, you sprout your ideas of “morally wrong” with no justification, you accuse me of clouding and confusing the issues when you do not even begin to grasp what the issues are and have done more damage to a serious discussion of the issues – your reply is just so beyond contempt it does not deserve a serious response even thought it took you two days to come up with it!
bkkguy
Bangkokbois said:
ROFL!
When did you start channeling LMTU, bkkguy?
You’re seriously going to claim bragging points thanks to my having gone away for the weekend and not posting or replying to your comment for 48 hours? That’s a bit desperate now isn’t it?
I guess we’ll have to agree that Paul’s comment on my End of the Week Post that Asians are nice people stumped me too then, huh?
Contrary to your belief, since I posted the original article that you responded to I’d say that I do know what the issues are – they were framed by that post. Just because I refuse to follow you down the rabbit hole and debate semantics instead doesn’t mean I fail to grasp what the issues are. Which according to you are what? That the clinical and narrow definition of pedophile that you Googled supersedes the common usage of the word? That’s a ‘serious discussion of the issues’ in your book?
You started you comments by objecting to what I said in my post. Not to what I said but rather that I said it. Then you objected to the idea that what I posted was my opinion. Not to what my opinion was, but that it should be defined as an opinion when you preferred the word prejudice. You objected to the statement I made based on my morals. Not to what my morals are but rather to the idea that one should be willing to stand up for their morals. At no time during this discussion have you bothered to state your position on either the issues raised in my post or on those you decided to raise instead. All you have accomplished is being objectionable.
Where is the substance in anything you have bothered to write? You seem to want to define ‘the issues’ yet are incapable of sharing your own thoughts on anything other than how you have decided to define a word. And even that is someone’s else words. The only stance you have taken is in calling my response to your smoke and mirrors approach “so beyond contempt it does not deserve a serious response.” Which I guess quite rightly you responded to in what no one would consider a serious manner. But it was good for a laugh. So thanks for that.
So the Elmo saga that started off my post has a new chapter. The gentleman who made the original complaint and then recanted now says he was forced to recant by the gang at Sesame Street. Sounds like the strong-arm tactics you’d expect of The Grouch to me. So he’s back to his original story. And has now been joined by a second accuser who also says Elmo had a sexual relationship with him when he was just a lad of 15. Elmo has packed his bags and flown the Sesame Street coop. And we are back to where we started, and to my original ‘issue.’
Elmo came out as a gay man in response to accusations of child molestation, cloaking himself in a mantle more acceptable to society. And that is my issue. Having sex with under-aged kids has nothing to do with being gay. No more than rape has to do with having sex. It is abuse. It is a power play by someone with a sick and demented mind. Allowing him to claim instead that he is gay is a disservice to our community. But then I guess in your mind the real issue would be whether there are accusations or allegations being made against him, huh? Because the words we use and how we choose to define them are all that really matters.
bkkguy said:
“Because the words we use and how we choose to define them are all that really matters.”
you, Gaybutton, thaiworthy, fountainhall and many others on the forums seem to think that you have some God-given right to climb on your (usually American-trained) moral high horse and re-define any word to suit your current arguement – if I don’t agree with your rant about under-age sex I am a pedophile, if I don’t agree about how much to tip at a restaurant I am a cheapskate, etc, etc
there is no logical response to this type of assumed superiority!
bkkguy
Bangkokbois said:
Yawn
Now you’re just making stuff up.
Al said:
Perhaps some readers here might be better placing their tongues squarely in their cheeks before reading or posting. If you can’t see the humour in an article it’s not always the writers fault.
Pattaya has long been notorious for underage sex exploitation. That is a given. No, not everyone goes to Pattaya for thet reason, I didn’t either. It was however evident during my time there.
We should remember this is a blog, not the Gospel. Nothing is set in stone and hopefully many people will just enjoy it for what it is.
May I suggest a little lightening up goes a long way, some of those horses can be really high to fall from.
tim said:
finding humour in peado’ism is not something i would have looked at … i am surprised tho that after slating the people who wrote 12pages on a forum .. it wont belong before this is the most commented on post on this blog ..
my issue with it was and still is .. the post started off about an american peado in american .. which was treated as a joke .. then went off on a rant about sickos in pattaya .. surely peados are just as bad where ever they maybe ?? and not just bad because they do their deeds in a place someone doesent like ?
Bangkokbois said:
Shame it’s late. I’ve got a great pedo joke. Maybe when I get back home tomorrow night I’ll post it . . .
Yup, as Alex pointed out the problem is not limited to Pattaya, or Thailand, and most abusers are family members. But then this post wasn’t intended to be a difinitive study on the problem world-wide. Pattaya got the honorable mention because it has that reputation (not because I’m not a fan of the town). If there were a known spot in the US with as many incidences as Pattaya lays claim to I would have made a much bigger deal about that place. But we don’t. Unless you consider the majority of southern states. But they don;t call it pedophilla there, it’s just breeding.
Bangkokbois said:
Oh, okay. A quick one:
Do you know what it means in Kentucky when you come home and your 12-year-old nephew is standing in the living room with cum dribbling out of both corners of his mouth?
Your trailer is level.
Al said:
Has anyone else seen the ‘dancing boys’ in Afghanistan? The vids are on You Tube.
Child molestation is a terrible thing everywhere it happens.
Thailand hasn’t cornered the market. I don’t think the original post was alluding to any humour on the matter but rather the pathetic individuals who perpetrate it and those scumbags who attempt to make excuses for them. Anywhere, anytime, it is a despicable act. Pattaya has that unenviable reputation, it must shed it.
PS, they have the same problem in Kentucky as they do in Tasmania…wow!
Bangkokbois said:
Thanks Al.
I haven’t check but assume Kentucky is one of the states with people petitioning to leave the union. Maybe they can become part of Tasmania?
tim said:
well if this post proved nothing else .. it did prove american humour is still not funny :)tm
Mitch S. said:
Since you don’t have a Sunday comic on the blogs this week, I’ll post this link here:
http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/topic27523.html
DaPimp, in semi-literate fashion, posts: “I am not sure where you got the idea taht this is a prhibited subject. I will look it over in the rules but if in fact it is mentioned in the rules I am sure our intent was that there would be no discussion that you enjoy pedophilia or pics of underage sex.
The rukes and guidelines state The encouragement of under-age sex. so it’s fine.”
I’m sure you can also figure out what he tried to write, but his literal words gave me a laugh.
Bangkokbois said:
[Snort}
I think Neal needs to have Scotty edit his posts.
tim said:
i was thinking about this again the other day .. when people talk about condemning this disgusting behaviour.
michael jackson …. elvis presley … jerry lee lewis … heroes the world over .. and all have one thing in common … yet you wonder why it kinda gets overlooked in certain places …
id say it gets over looked the world over !
Bangkokbois said:
No Tim, you are correct. It is a problem world-wide. I segued into the situation in Pattaya because it is a familiar one, and thanks to the news about the Aussie guy’s arrest, not because it is the only place where the problem exists. Now I would argue whether any of those gentlemen deserve to be called a hero, but then I’d sound like bkkguy. So I’ll accept your point instead since it is a valid one.