It just kills me when I see (and read in the forums) gay men who can’t handle a little pussy in the bars. Are they so fragile that a vagina in the immediate area will make them swoon? And when it comes from men who are of an age to have faced real discrimination I’m just like WTF?
And to top it off, in the thread that served as muse for this cartoon our beloved saint said the exact opposite: that because men of a certain age had been so traumatized in their youth for being gay they should be protected from having to have a woman enter their bar!
Donsaid:
OK. Let me be the contrarian again. While I have no personal issue, I think there is a sort of stockholm syndrome here. People of a certain age who hid everything for so very, very long get used to it, cling to it. The Jew forced into a Ghetto who rationalizes it as his neighborhood with his butcher, baker and candlestick maker,
I suspect, I may be wrong, that with a world that is still less than fully welcoming ( a vacation in Uganda anyone) – the intrusion ( yes it is viewed that way ) of a woman into the bar is seen, hysterically, but seen – as a jackbooted bully entering the ghetto.
The young are becoming far more open and that is a breath of fresh air- yet, I have to understand those who cling to something they can call their own.
Might be that they are exasperated with the slow pace of change.
I wanna sympathize with those who had such a traumatic gay youth, but come on. Time to move past it. That attitude just helps keep things as they were.
Donsaid:
True, but when the great physicist Max Plank was asked by a student:” how do you get the others to understand the great changes in science. They are so used to the old ways and ideas.” Dr Plank responded.” you don’t , they die and real acceptance and change come with the succession of the young – who will have their own interests and ideas in tow.”
All I’m asking everyone to realize is that people who grew up with no presence on screen, on stage, no books where the gay was a character of dignity. Where every love, inclination and choice was hidden are in no position to change so easily. For decades the only place they could be themselves and still be out of their homes was the gay bar. The door closes, the door is watched in case the cops come to harass them and if that door opens and a woman comes in – well, their reality is threatened.
they will die, times will change – but understand that their reaction was beat into them by fathers. like mine, who went after them with bats.
My friend, I respect your opinions and , usually, agree with them. But it is far too facile an argument that it is time to change, it is – and that change is happening but don’t expect it too fast and understand those who still fear.
And Mahatma Gandhi said, āBe the change that you wish to see in the world.ā
I think weāll have to disagree on this one Don. Which is a hell of a lot more fun than agreeing anyway.
Iām not unmindful of where those guys came from, what they suffered through, or why what are now irrational fears remain so deeply rooted within their souls. But they seem to want to embrace their cherished fears and never let go of those year of repression. We are, after all, only talking about an occasional fish walking into a gay bar.
I donāt think saying you need to understand the times they grew up in is a legitimate stance, at least not as an excuse for current behavior. Interestingly, and quite timely, I was just talking to my mother about Don Sterling, the owner of the Clippers, whose racist comments Iām sure youāve heard by now. Moms thinks he should be given a pass, using the same type of justification – itās because of his age and the world he was raised in. Or as she put it, āHeās an old Jew and should be forgiven for his racism because thatās how people were most of his life.ā She double-downed on that statement when I called her out on the āold Jewā remark btw.
Change is a scary idea to many. There is safety in clinging to the familiar, even when the familiar is bad for you. While I do understand and empathize where that attitude comes from, by refusing to grow beyond those feelings you are only hurting yourself and by self-inflicted segregation you are only preventing yourself from experiencing a much broader and rewarding world. (You not meaning you specifically.)
But thanks (again) for your thoughts. If nothing else they help remind me to consider where others are coming from. Even if I disagree with where that has, or has not, taken them
Donsaid:
as always, you make some very good points and give me pause. I had not considered the Clippers comparison – I’ll consider this – you may well convince me. But, I will still, i think, take a moment to consider the shoes i have not walked in,
Mitch S. said:
Rapier wit! Love it & the expanding cast of comic characters. So many possibilities… š
Bangkokbois said:
yes, there are aren’t there . . .
š
jeffreymonsoon said:
It just kills me when I see (and read in the forums) gay men who can’t handle a little pussy in the bars. Are they so fragile that a vagina in the immediate area will make them swoon? And when it comes from men who are of an age to have faced real discrimination I’m just like WTF?
Bangkokbois said:
Thank you!
Geeze!
And to top it off, in the thread that served as muse for this cartoon our beloved saint said the exact opposite: that because men of a certain age had been so traumatized in their youth for being gay they should be protected from having to have a woman enter their bar!
Don said:
OK. Let me be the contrarian again. While I have no personal issue, I think there is a sort of stockholm syndrome here. People of a certain age who hid everything for so very, very long get used to it, cling to it. The Jew forced into a Ghetto who rationalizes it as his neighborhood with his butcher, baker and candlestick maker,
I suspect, I may be wrong, that with a world that is still less than fully welcoming ( a vacation in Uganda anyone) – the intrusion ( yes it is viewed that way ) of a woman into the bar is seen, hysterically, but seen – as a jackbooted bully entering the ghetto.
The young are becoming far more open and that is a breath of fresh air- yet, I have to understand those who cling to something they can call their own.
Might be that they are exasperated with the slow pace of change.
Bangkokbois said:
I wanna sympathize with those who had such a traumatic gay youth, but come on. Time to move past it. That attitude just helps keep things as they were.
Don said:
True, but when the great physicist Max Plank was asked by a student:” how do you get the others to understand the great changes in science. They are so used to the old ways and ideas.” Dr Plank responded.” you don’t , they die and real acceptance and change come with the succession of the young – who will have their own interests and ideas in tow.”
All I’m asking everyone to realize is that people who grew up with no presence on screen, on stage, no books where the gay was a character of dignity. Where every love, inclination and choice was hidden are in no position to change so easily. For decades the only place they could be themselves and still be out of their homes was the gay bar. The door closes, the door is watched in case the cops come to harass them and if that door opens and a woman comes in – well, their reality is threatened.
they will die, times will change – but understand that their reaction was beat into them by fathers. like mine, who went after them with bats.
My friend, I respect your opinions and , usually, agree with them. But it is far too facile an argument that it is time to change, it is – and that change is happening but don’t expect it too fast and understand those who still fear.
Bangkokbois said:
And Mahatma Gandhi said, āBe the change that you wish to see in the world.ā
I think weāll have to disagree on this one Don. Which is a hell of a lot more fun than agreeing anyway.
Iām not unmindful of where those guys came from, what they suffered through, or why what are now irrational fears remain so deeply rooted within their souls. But they seem to want to embrace their cherished fears and never let go of those year of repression. We are, after all, only talking about an occasional fish walking into a gay bar.
I donāt think saying you need to understand the times they grew up in is a legitimate stance, at least not as an excuse for current behavior. Interestingly, and quite timely, I was just talking to my mother about Don Sterling, the owner of the Clippers, whose racist comments Iām sure youāve heard by now. Moms thinks he should be given a pass, using the same type of justification – itās because of his age and the world he was raised in. Or as she put it, āHeās an old Jew and should be forgiven for his racism because thatās how people were most of his life.ā She double-downed on that statement when I called her out on the āold Jewā remark btw.
Change is a scary idea to many. There is safety in clinging to the familiar, even when the familiar is bad for you. While I do understand and empathize where that attitude comes from, by refusing to grow beyond those feelings you are only hurting yourself and by self-inflicted segregation you are only preventing yourself from experiencing a much broader and rewarding world. (You not meaning you specifically.)
But thanks (again) for your thoughts. If nothing else they help remind me to consider where others are coming from. Even if I disagree with where that has, or has not, taken them
Don said:
as always, you make some very good points and give me pause. I had not considered the Clippers comparison – I’ll consider this – you may well convince me. But, I will still, i think, take a moment to consider the shoes i have not walked in,
Bangkokbois said:
A much better course of action no doubt. Except in this case those shoes are high heels . . .