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Ann Landers was a crotchety old cunt popular in the late ‘50s and ‘60s for her newspaper column in which people wrote in asking for advice on issues of etiquette and coping with their miserable little lives, starting each missive with the now famous greeting, Dear Ann. No worries, this is not a new recurring post on my blog. I only qualify for one of Ann’s two adjectives anyway. I’ll let you determine which you feel is most apt.
A reader posted a comment yesterday not quite to the proper article, but close enough at least subject wise to let it pass. I’d have just answered it there, but it fit so well with an article I’ve been mulling over I thought I’d highlight it, and my response, in a regular post. The main article is still to come. The commenter, Michael, hit on a few specifics that creep up often enough that I can not just dismiss them out of hand. And while I disagree with his general observations, his comment did not urge me to call bullshit like other, similar takes have.
I don’t know who first coined the phrase about opinions being like assholes, but that does not make someone’s opinion with which you disagree necessarily wrong. As faulty as it may be. I doubt if this post, or my reply to Michael will change his either. His logic is off, his story filled with problems, but I think his underlying feelings about bar boys is still valid and not that unusual. I’m sharing it here not so much to provide me with an opportunity of ripping him a new asshole (though that in itself is always fun) but rather to provide readers an alternative view of the bar boy world in Thailand. If nothing else it should serve as a warning to visitors that problems do exist within Bangkok’s gay gogo bar world.
Dear Bangkokbois:
My experience in soi Twilight was not pleasant and i totally disagree with you in the respect that you niavely think these Thai men are misunderstood. These so called human beings are nothing but filthy prostitutes. The monkey’s that work in Hot Male Bar are professional con men and thiefs. I met a guy in Hot male Bar and before i knew it he was filling me up with alcohol and conversation. After drinking with this parasite who called himself Joe i decided to pay his bar and take him back to my HOME in Bangkok. This filthy disgraceful Thai man helped himself to my wallet and emptied the contents including 20,000baht, mastercard, amex, i phone, camera, and video camera. I went back to Hot male Bar the next day and confronted this little thief and recieved a beer bottle to the back of my head as repayment and kicked for my effort for trying to get my stuff back.
You should not mislead people to think that these scum of the earth are innocent and trying to make a honest living. For starters there is nothing honest in selling your body for money. This kind of filth gives Thailand a bad name and i pray everyday that Joe will come to harm. I hate being so low in self esteem to go to that disgraceful bar in the first place. If anybody reads this i need for you to know stay home and jerk off. Do not let these prostitutes bring your life to harm. There is no justice in Bangkok and the so called police force is more of a joke than the scum that works in Hot male Bar.
I hope that tourist looking for a holiday in Bangkok think again. Bangkok is hot, dirty and the workers in the sex trade are the lowest form of human beings.
Dear Michael:
First, let me thank you for your comment. I don’t agree with your over-all opinion of Bangkok’s gay gogo bar industry, but that does not make what you have to say any less valid. I also have a problem with your story, it is so far removed from my own experiences I have a difficult time in believing it. But, I’m going to take your claims at face value (for now) recognizing if nothing else you do provide a useful counterbalance to the tales and tips provided by my blog. Your story, assuming it is a true one, highlights potential dangers, or at least concerns, that visitors to that world – especially those new to the bar scene – should be aware of. It would be easy for me to dismiss your comment, or to offer a quick sarcastic reply. I’m not going to do that. As obviously emotional on the subject as you are, and as deeply held as your opinion seems to be, suggests that I should take what you have to say seriously; my reply should be as heartfelt as your comment was.
The crux of your complaint with the industry stems from an incident wherein you offed a guy from a bar on Soi Twilight, took him to your home, and he stole cash, credit cards, and electronics. Your response was to return to the bar the next night and confront the boy. Instead of getting your valuables back you were physically assaulted.
I’ve read for years about customers being the victims of theft when they brought a bar boy back to their room or home. I’ve offed over a hundred guys and have never has so much as a satang stolen. I would assume that it would be much more risky to bring a free-lancer home with you than a boy working from one of the bars on Twilight. But that’s not your claim. So let’s deal with the theft first.
The gay message boards dealing with Thailand and its commercial sex industry – as well as those on the straight boards – are filled with advice from the cautious about locking your valuables away and keeping an eye on your wallet. Some claim its best to have the boy shower first, you can hide everything while he is busy in the bathroom. Others feel it’s better to do it the other way around. Whichever you prefer, the need to secure your valuables is a given. Doing so greatly lowers the opportunity for theft. Some even go so far as to only use one of the hotels that offer short-time lodging; they do not even want to take a chance of bringing a boy back to their room. The BBB Inn and Suriwong Hotel are both set up for this trade; all the boys know where the hotels are that serve as a flop house.
Visitors may also be further protected by choosing one of the many hotels that require the ‘guest’ of a guest leave his ID at the front desk. Many of these, such as Tarntawan check with the registered guest to make sure everything is okay before releasing the boy’s ID at the end of their engagement.
I’ve always held that one of the reasons to use a bar to procure your entertainment from is that the bar will protect you from theft, or worse. All of the bars on Soi Twilight rely on repeat business, and word-of-mouth should theft be a problem will kill off that industry quickly. The police, who are paid to turn a blind eye to prostitution, would have a major problem on their hands if theft from customers was the norm. Whatever the short-time gain may be to a bar boy by stealing from you, the long-term damage, and hassle, faced by the owners and managers of the bars would not make it acceptable in their world. Even as much as Thais live for the day, they do understand the up-side of running clean environments. But you claim your experience was different. Assuming you did get ripped off by a bar boy from one of the clubs, let’s look at what you could do about it.
Going to the police would be an obvious first step to a newbie. Those more familiar with the police in Thailand may consider their involvement as a last resort. You went back to the bar and confronted the thief. Sorry, but that was not a good idea and it held little chance of successfully getting your valuables back. Since you claim you took the boy to your ‘home’ I assume you have some sort of long-term accommodation in Bangkok and some form of long-term relationship with Bangkok. How you could possibly think confrontation would ever be a successful technique for righting a wrong is beyond me. That you got a beating when you decided to confront ‘the little thief’ does not surprise me in the least.
If a bar boy stole from me I too would return to the bar but instead would ask, politely, to speak with the manager. Rather than a confrontational, “Your boy stole from me! I want my stuff back!” I would calmly and respectfully try something like, “I offed one of your boys last night and some of my belongings have gone missing. Could you ask him if he knows what happened to them?”
The manger will know exactly what happened. But you have not accused him, his bar, and his employee of being thieves. He will talk with the boy – more likely he’ll demand the boy return your goods to the bar. And then you’ll get your belongings as though it was all just a big misunderstanding.
A direct confrontation may be what you are used to in the west, but this is Thailand. You are a visitor in their country. Whether you like it or not, if you want to be successful you need to deal with life on their terms. Avoiding confrontation and saving face matter the most to Thais. If you respect that, and deal with it, chances are you’ll be treated fairly. When you scream, “Thief!” at a boy in front of his bar, his boss, friends, and customers – even if he is guilty – his sole option is to take you on. And his buddies will probably join in.
If your respectful and rational discussion with the manager does not work, then go to the police. And be just as polite and non-accusatory. Yes, the police are corrupt. Yes, the police will scam visitors when they can get away with it. But they also really do enforce laws and assist visitors who have a problem. If nothing else the police too will avoid the ‘problem’ by going to the bar and having the manager retrieve your goods for you. And once again, it will have been just a big misunderstanding.
It just so happens that I am familiar with the bar in your story, Hot Male, and with its manager. The bar is not a rip-off joint that would allow its employees to steal cash and valuable from customers. The manager would be mortified to find out one of his boys did so. And would have taken care of the matter for you had you approached him in the proper manner.
Everyone tends to portray themselves as the hero, or victim, in the tales the tell. Still, your argument and warning that all bar boys are thieves, etc. does not strengthen your argument by doing so. Let’s address the issue of responsibility. Or perhaps negligence is a better term. You decided to go to a gogo bar. You imply that you live in Bangkok so exactly what is on offer at these bars could not have been a big surprise to you. Hot Male’s barkers are not aggressive, they did not pull you into the bar. In fact, you had to walk up a steep, lengthy flight of stairs to get into the bar.
You decided to have a conversation with one of the boys, and you decided to buy both of you drinks. And then you decided to off the boy and take him home with you. Your statement ‘he was filling me up with alcohol and conversation” is a bit one-sided and fails to take into account that if you had not agreed to it the boy would not have been conversing with you, and you – and you alone – could decide whether drinks would be bought and consumed.
You could have sent the boy away and not have talked with him, you could have not bought him drinks, you could have not decided to off him, and you could have not decided to take him to your home. You were in control of this part of your evening. Not the boy. Perhaps, afterwards you’ve decided that you should not have done these things. That does not alter the fact that you did. At no time were you forced to do so. Man up and take responsibility for your own actions. You were not a victim of prostitution, you were a willing participant.
Even as angry as you appear to be, calling a group of people ‘monkey’s (sic) suggests an attitude that almost guarantees that you will be mistreated. As for the ‘filthy prostitutes’ “and that there is “nothing honest about selling your body for money,” and that those who do are “the lowest form of human beings” . . . again, while I’d like to take your obvious anger into account I can’t but help to wonder what’s wrong with your moral compass that places all the blame on them and yet allows you – the person who decided to go buy a whore for the night – to remain the fine, moral, and upstanding man you consider yourself to be.
Prostitution is different in Thailand than it is in the west. Both in practice and in how the trade is viewed by society. Yes, there are bad bar boys. And good ones too. Just as there are bad people who work at McDonalds, and good ones too. To many of the guys working on Soi Twilight it is a job, a business, no more and no less than any other. If prostitution offends your sensibilities, there is no reason for you to be on Soi Twilight, no one is forcing you to make that part of the country a part of your experience.
Perhaps it was in fact your ‘low self esteem’ that sent you off to Twilight in search of a prostitute. But then that’s not really a healthy attitude to start with. Many customers do so with no self-esteem issues. It’s a night out, a fun place to visit while on a holiday. But then your attitude does impact the experience you’ll have. So I’ll give you that one. And note that it sounds like you got exactly what you paid for. And wanted.
If you truly “pray everyday that Joe will come to harm” I feel sorry for you. You are devoting a lot of your time to negativity and that is just plain unhealthy. Seriously, you should consider seeking professional advice to help you rid yourself of these feelings. As negative, stressful, and disturbing as this incident may have been to you, allowing it to continue to disturb you to this degree is not good. If nothing else, you need to get over it, consider it a lesson in life, and move on.
Sorry Michael, but I am not naive. Nor do I mislead readers about the innocence, motivation, or honesty of bar boys, and Bangkok’s commercial sex trade in general. I often point out the greed and avarice involved in the industry. I provide warnings about the known scams and possible problems a newbie may have in negotiating that world. Though I often use cynicism and sarcasm to do so. While I strongly disagree with the general tone of your comment, I’m publishing it to give both sides of the coin an airing, while also using it to highlight problems a visitor may experience in Bangkok and its gogo bars.
I think both your attitude and actions were largely responsible for the trouble you had, if in fact your story is true. Regardless, condemning an entire industry – especially in light of the thousands of guys who have had nothing but good experiences – is just as wrong as completely ignoring that problems can and do exist. So at least for that I thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts.
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tim said:
me thinky michael not genuine … im sure if i was beaten and robbed this wouldnt be my first port of call to let everyone know about it …
not seen anything on the boards about this tale warning people ..
i do belive b/l is back with a vengance … and all his wows are your fault … tut tut at you …
Bangkokbois said:
What? Suddenly I’m Off-Broadway?
🙂
I was suspicious too, but figured since Michael took the time to write all of that out I’d take it at face value and respond.
Now if he’d mentioned a lack of self-awareness . . .
Joe said:
Well done – I think your response is thoughtful and accurate. Michael obviously made the situation much worse than it needed to be. For someone who apparently lives in Bangkok, I was amazed at his reaction.
Bangkokbois said:
Thanks Joe. Me too, it’s usually someone obviously on vacation who I see blow up and think that will do something for them.
Chris said:
A beautifully worded response.
Bangkokbois said:
Thank you Chris, and thanks for taking the time to comment.
Mitch S. said:
Seems like “a bit” of a gap in the letter to you on the most important point, so I doubt it’s veracity. The actual theft is not discussed in any detail and there is an excessive amount of ranting about the thief. How was there an opportunity to empty the wallet, etc.? I’m sure any “story-teller” could fill in the blanks retroactively, but if this was a true story, details of the theft itself would have been included already. Just bullshit from a liar! As Judge Judy loves to say, “If it doesn’t make sense, it’s not true!”
I’ve never had a guy steal from me in Thailand, but I don’t leave valuables out in the open either. You make good points, as always, on some guys being good & others bad. Just like any other occupation — some good, most average & some to avoid.
The only trouble I’ve ever had with taking guys back was one time when I brought three freelance buddies back together. I had been with two of the guys multiple times before including twice with those two together; however, this time the one new player got cold feet after awhile. They had all showered together and had been fondling each other for some time, but then the new one didn’t want to blow his friend or continue onto intercourse. We had all agreed to sex before heading back (and I made certain the new guy was clear on what I wanted), so fine, go home. No payment for no sex. Some pouting. I let the right people at their regular bar hangout know about the non-performance, in hopes that others might avoid a dud in the future.
Bangkokbois said:
Mitch you little slut!
I’m impressed!
🙂
I kinda wondered too if it was at his home this happened how the boy had access to all of that stuff. Makes snese in 1 room at a hotel but in your home?
tj said:
Well said and thank you for the balanced view. Michael has no business in Soi Twilight if this is his attitude. Maybe he should consider whether he should be in Thailand at all if he does not understand the culture? If he thinks prostitution is so wrong what was he doing in a gogo bar in the first place?
Bangkokbois said:
Thanks TJ. Yup, I can’t help but think that he must have a difficult time with daily life in BKK even avoiding Twilight.
Al said:
Dear Michael,
Thank you for alerting us to something we already take precautions against. The fact that you seem to be a dimwitted idiot who has nothing better to do than sully great blogs with your childish vitriol has nothing to do with my utter contempt for your literary pile of crap. Now please go and put your head under a tourist coach’s wheels and get your miserable little ass out of our lives. Tosser!
Bangkokbois said:
ROFL!
Okay, so a slightly different tack than I opted for Al, but it works.
I think I’ll let you reply to all comments from now on.
Hendrikbkk said:
Wow! Everybody defending the little darlings from Soi Twilight!
What has it to do with culture when you things get stolen from you? And why do you have to ask politely for returning of your goods? Culture? Please!
Maybe the story is not true, I indeed think it is hard to believe that the boy in question hit him on the head with a bottle in the bar, but going all out on Michael that he has nothing to look for in Bangkok and why does he even stay there?
I don’t think it is part of Thai culture to steal and do bodily harm, I do think it is part of money boy culture to do these things and then accept it is normal.
Over the years mobile phones has stolen from me and I also noticed that Thais steal from eachother.
I took the trouble to report it to the police, the Lumpini police station in fact. Next to the added value of seeing a lot of cute offices in those tight uniforms, I was helped friendly and in a swift manner. Ofcourse it was just for my insurance claim, not to engage in some man hunt. But it still pisses me of when guys steal things.
Bangkokbois said:
I don’t think anyone was defending theft Hendrik, or saying it doesn’t happen. But it certainly isn’t limited to bar boys nor are all bar boys thieves. I believe the comments posted had more to do with the truth of Michael’s story and if true how poorly he handled the situation.
As for asking politely for the returning of your goods . . . sorry, but what I outlined as a possible successful way to go about doing that fits Thai culture. It isn’t about the theft, but your approach. And my suggestion was to approach the bar manager. He was not the thief, and yelling at him, calling his establishment a den of thieves, or implying he is to blame will not get you anywhere.
On the other hand, you do bring up the bright side: those boys in brown can be damn hot!
🙂
Al said:
Dear Hendrikbkk,
These boys are no angels, you know that before you go there. Take necessary steps to ensure your safety and valuables as in any country and you will have a great time.
If you are stupid and careless you deserve all you get. Most of us have the sense to realise what risks we take.
I have had more stolen by Aussie and British boys than anywhere else. Caveat Emptor my friends. You’ll only pat so many dogs before you get bitten.
Xian Darkthorne said:
I’ve been so drunk while in LOS that I couldn’t even recall the face of the guy I took back to my hotel room – and on another occasion, equally plastered while on my way to change some more baht so that I had no recollection of how much, where or when I did it though the next morning, When I woke up the next afternoon, I dimly recalled someone helping me to take off my clothes in my room the night before and I was about 1,800 baht short of what I thought I’d left out on my dresser. I do not even remember stopping by at a bar on my way back, offing OR boffing anyone (what a waste of money!) in my room and I still believe I have never been robbed of so much as one cent in LOS. Scammed, yes. Robbed, no. Nevertheless, I do not drink any form of alcohol any more. I have no wish to waste any more money offing, boffing and then forgetting everything the next morning ever again.
Bangkokbois said:
. . . but then again there have been one or two nights in thailand I’d just as soon have been too drunk to remember. Thanks for your input XD.
Volker said:
I call myself a newbie who traveled three times to Bangkok. Last time I went to V-club for a massage. On my way back I realized that my ec-Card (german bankcard) was gone. With this card I can take cash from bankmachines but you need a pin. I think the guy took it when I was showering. By the way he didnt take any cash. Beside blocking my card I didnt know what to do. Because I wasnt 100 % shure that the guy took it I didnt do anything.
Now I want to thank you for your explanations. That helps me a lot to react in the case of a next time.
And I wanted to thank you for your blog that I realy enjoy
Bangkokbois said:
Thanks Volker, and thanks for sharing your story too. Going back to V-Man, slightly panicked and explaining to the manager you’d lost your card somewhere probably would have been a good move. People tend to respond to those in distress much better than those accusing someone of something. At least your loss was only an inconvenience. And undoubtedly you are now more aware and wary.
VietAmerican said:
I just made my second visit to Bangkok…and my first time to Soi Twilight. Before my trip, I read through your blog and similar sites. I ended offing a boy from Hot Male and another boy (twice) from Dream Boys and had a great time. They were really sweet and treated me well. The boy from Dream Boy even showed me other cool bars on my last night on his day off. I did take care to put away valuables prior to bring the boys back to my room at Tharntawan. I also tipped the staff there well so they were on a look out for me each time I brought someone back to the hotel, something they would have for every guest I am sure.
In any event, my first experience offing boys in Bangkok went great. I did go into the situation with a different state of mind….that was, it wasn’t just about my own pleasures and needs. I treated the boys with respect and always took their comfort level into account.
Will definitely continue to read your blog and visit Bangkok.
Bangkokbois said:
Thank you VA!
Wonderful feedback and good to know my sarcasm doesn’t get in the way of my message.
Glad to hear you had a great time in Bangkok, sounds like the boys did too. I’m sure you’ll be remembered fondly and quickly snatched up on your next trip.
John said:
If Michael did indeed get robbed, then I feel sorry for him. I’ve been a robbery victim myself (although in very different circumstances), and it really is no fun at all.
I do have to say that I think you’re right to be skeptical of his account, however. Call me a cynical lawyer, but a number of things don’t add up. His story is long on outrage but very short on details. How did this theft occur, exactly? Given the number of items stolen and their heft (a phone, a camera, and a video camera), I doubt the thief could have slipped the stuff into his pocket and headed out the door without being noticed. I don’t think Bangkok bar boys wear big, heavy coats in which they could conceal such things. I suppose it might be possible for the theft to escape detection if Michael were so drunk he wasn’t aware of his surroundings (he does mention getting filled up with alcohol), but if that was the case, he was extremely foolish to bring a stranger into his home to begin with. Basically, I wonder how this guy could have gotten out of Michael’s house with so much stuff without Michael noticing.
The other odd thing is that you’ve written a lot about Hot Male bar and your experiences there. It sounds like a legit establishment, at least to the extent that any place that serves as a purveyor of sex workers can be legit. As you note, this kind of experience would be disastrous for business if it became known, and in these days of the Internet, that wouldn’t take long. The bar has every interest in ensuring that its boys don’t commit crimes against the bar’s partons. And even if the Thai police are corrupt and unreliable, I can’t imagine the bar — let alone its possibly closeted patrons — would relish a visit from the men in uniform. So even assuming Michael confronted this guy at the bar, and the boy reacted badly, I’m surprised that the management wouldn’t have intervened to sort things out. Again, Michael doesn’t say much about what happened in this confrontation, other than to claim he was hit with a bottle. Did the bar’s management really just kick him out without even listening to his accusations?
All that aside, Michael needs a MAJOR attitude adjustment. If there’s nothing honest in selling one’s body for money, there’s likewise nothing honest in purchasing a body for money. And if the guys at Hot Male are the scum of the earth, why on earth did he want to get naked with one? Frankly, I think prostitution is like any business. You’re buying and selling a service. It just so happens the service is sex. Like any business, one or both parties to the transaction can be dishonest. But they can also be honest. I’ve hooked up with a number of escorts in my time, and most have them have been stand-up guys. Some of them have delivered some of the best sex of my life, and they were paid handsomely for their service. To me, it’s a completely fair transaction as long as both sides know what they’re getting into. So to all of Michael’s moral outrage, I say, “Meh.”
Wow. I do run on. Thanks for the post!
Bangkokbois said:
Thanks for your comments John, you’ve raised valid points and done so in a diplomatic manner. And for a cynical lawyer, that was quite concise!
🙂